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Post by austin86 on Mar 17, 2023 13:42:12 GMT -5
Had a few quick questions about the bot rules with 3dmark.
I'm planing to bench some rather old PCI and AGP cards latter this summer. We are talking about cards like the ati rage, s3 virge and other early 3d cards.
I plan to use win98/nt4 and maybe 2k/XP. Here is my problem, the rules state I need to use GPUz, Can I use a older version that works on these OSs? I plan to use kernel EX and so forth to get GPUz to work on 9x, is that a problem? and what about older cards it can't ID?
Also I now I need to leave 3dmarks setting alone but what about making changes with the driver or other tools like power strip or rivatuner that is more or less is the same thing as some of the settings in 3damrk?
Thanks.
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Post by ShrimpBrime on Mar 17, 2023 13:45:43 GMT -5
You should be able to use legacy versions of gpu and cpu Z for your submissions. For legacy, you can use D3D override and LOD adjustments. This is legal benching. Use this for ATI/AMD LOD - AMDLodAdjuster 1.rar (36.13 KB) |
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Post by Aleslammer on Mar 17, 2023 14:12:27 GMT -5
I've used Powerstrip on a few older cards and I think Everest. SB points out the use of older GPUz also.
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Post by austin86 on Mar 17, 2023 14:27:08 GMT -5
ok, thanks for the advice. Does anyone know were the supported version cut off is for GPUz and 9x or nt4?
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Post by Bones on Mar 17, 2023 16:19:30 GMT -5
Best thing in my humble opinion is run XP, it works fine with GPU-Z that I know of regardless of the card you'll be running.
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Post by Mr.Scott on Mar 17, 2023 17:06:53 GMT -5
Even a pic of card and another program showing card info and clocks would be accepted.
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Post by austin86 on Mar 18, 2023 14:02:09 GMT -5
Best thing in my humble opinion is run XP, it works fine with GPU-Z that I know of regardless of the card you'll be running. well yes I could but some cards I want to bench don't have the best NT drivers and the OS overhead not to mention my lack of tweaking knowledge with xp would be a problem. |
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Post by Bones on Mar 18, 2023 15:53:39 GMT -5
Best thing in my humble opinion is run XP, it works fine with GPU-Z that I know of regardless of the card you'll be running. well yes i could but some cards i want to bench don't have the best nt drivers and the OS overhead not to mention my lack of tweeking knowledge with xp wold be a problem Tweaks with XP aren't that different, it's more or less the same as for NT if nothing else since XP is really just an newer/updated version of Win NT/2000 anyway. What applies to NT does to XP that I know of. I also realize they aren't "Identical" so there will be a few minor differences but nothing you coudn't handle or figure out along the way for good results. I will say for benching in general Tiny XP is probrably the way to go to reduce OS overhead and the like, which is largely why it was created in the first place. Tiny XP 9 is SP3 based, there is another version of a higher number by name (Tiny XP 11) but it's SP2 based "As is" - Get Tiny XP 9 and you'll be ready to go. With that said, I'm not a 3D guy so I'll have to leave it up to those that are to properly guide you with it. |
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Post by ShrimpBrime on Mar 18, 2023 18:08:55 GMT -5
Just set it up, run some benchmarks and have fun with it. That's all you need to do. There's no specific tweaks to worry about unless you plan to be super competitive on cooling and volt mods.
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Post by Macsbeach98 on Mar 18, 2023 20:18:16 GMT -5
Look on bot and look at a few screenshots of the card you are going to use that will tell you basically what is accepted.
One thing with this old stuff you dont usually have the nazi police scrutinising every sub
As Scotty said if you cant get GPUz going a window of powerstrip overclock panel or whatever you use showing clocks in your screenshot is quite acceptable.
So Aquamark, 3D99, 3D2000, and 3D2001 are the benches dont think any of those old cards are capable of running 3D03.
There is a CPUz for W9x dont know about GPUz though I would be running 2000/XP if possible its the most stable and reliable OS.
Should be fun Good Luck
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Post by ShrimpBrime on Mar 19, 2023 10:37:00 GMT -5
Look on bot and look at a few screenshots of the card you are going to use that will tell you basically what is accepted. One thing with this old stuff you dont usually have the nazi police scrutinising every sub As Scotty said if you cant get GPUz going a window of powerstrip overclock panel or whatever you use showing clocks in your screenshot is quite acceptable. So Aquamark, 3D99, 3D2000, and 3D2001 are the benches dont think any of those old cards are capable of running 3D03. There is a CPUz for W9x dont know about GPUz though I would be running 2000/XP if possible its the most stable and reliable OS. Should be fun Good Luck Hey Pete, does aquamark need to be run with the wrapper on AGP stuff? |
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Post by Mr.Scott on Mar 19, 2023 10:39:23 GMT -5
Yes. Wrapper all the time.
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Post by Macsbeach98 on Mar 19, 2023 17:08:38 GMT -5
Yes wrapper but you can turn off Hardware Detection if it wont submit.
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Post by Mr.Scott on Mar 19, 2023 17:24:17 GMT -5
but you can turn off Hardware Detection if it wont submit. Just do this automatically. I never use it. |
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Post by georgekokovinis on Mar 19, 2023 17:30:41 GMT -5
Aquamark, like 3d03, is basically a cpu benchmark.
Do not expect any meaningfull result unless you are running a very high speed cpu.
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Post by georgekokovinis on Mar 19, 2023 18:33:42 GMT -5
BTW, the cards mentioned by the OP, have no real usefulness points wise.
I suppose only for his personal fun.
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Post by antinomy on Mar 19, 2023 18:55:17 GMT -5
For old cards you can't ID any other solid tool will be fine - Everest/AIDA, Powerstrip, Rivatuner. You can change any settings you want like LOD etc. via Rivatuner, ATITrayTools and so on. The only thing that is not allowed is wire-frame mode when you don't have any textures. I know only one tweaker that can set this so I won't bring it up, it's an unpopular one.
Aquamark won't work on old cards because the original Aquamark downgraded settings when h/w isn't capable of running the defaults. But the latest wrapper doesn't accept such behaviour so if it doesn't support everything Aquamark needs by default, it just crashes.
Have fun and you're always welcome if you need some help.
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Post by austin86 on Mar 20, 2023 8:35:09 GMT -5
Just set it up, run some benchmarks and have fun with it. That's all you need to do. There's no specific tweaks to worry about unless you plan to be super competitive on cooling and volt mods. I do. if I'm subbing a score it better be #1 or at lest #2. Old GPU's are kinda my thing so its something I could pull off with a few cards. CPUs not so much, but top 5 is still what I'm shooting for there too. I plan to grab a hand full of old Cellys and early P3's here soon. I just have to recap my bx133-raid.
One thing with this old stuff you dont usually have the nazi police scrutinising every sub That's a relief
There is a CPUz for W9x dont know about GPUz though I would be running 2000/XP if possible its the most stable and reliable OS. Stable yes, but 9x does have its advantages with older hardware. I also know what to strip out of 98 to make the OS even more light and stable. I guess a lot of it comes down to my experience and lack of good 2k/xp drivers for some really old hardware. |
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Post by Mr.Scott on Mar 20, 2023 9:04:27 GMT -5
The only thing that is not allowed is wire-frame mode when you don't have any textures. I know only one tweaker that can set this so I won't bring it up, it's an unpopular one. I know the wire frame hack.  |
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Post by austin86 on Mar 20, 2023 9:24:24 GMT -5
The only thing that is not allowed is wire-frame mode when you don't have any textures. I know only one tweaker that can set this so I won't bring it up, it's an unpopular one. I know the wire frame hack. Some cards don't need the hack. looking at you s3 virge, I mean s3 deccelerator. |
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Post by ShrimpBrime on Mar 20, 2023 9:45:43 GMT -5
Just set it up, run some benchmarks and have fun with it. That's all you need to do. There's no specific tweaks to worry about unless you plan to be super competitive on cooling and volt mods. I do. if I'm subbing a score it better be #1 or at lest #2. Old GPU's are kinda my thing so its something I could pull off with a few cards. CPUs not so much, but top 5 is still what I'm shooting for there too. I plan to grab a hand full of old Cellys and early P3's here soon. I just have to recap my bx133-raid.
One thing with this old stuff you dont usually have the nazi police scrutinising every sub That's a relief
There is a CPUz for W9x dont know about GPUz though I would be running 2000/XP if possible its the most stable and reliable OS. Stable yes, but 9x does have its advantages with older hardware. I also know what to strip out of 98 to make the OS even more light and stable. I guess a lot of it comes down to my experience and lack of good 2k/xp drivers for some really old hardware. As easy as it sounds, it won't be. 2 things - 1, the card better OC as well as everyone else's or better. 2, the CPU better OC as well as everyone else's or better. Tweaks are below those first to obstacles. ATI cards, most of the time, LOD tuned down. Slim OS and background tasks. Other tweaks are below 1% average scoring. AGP, Core2 duo and quads. (Why I don't do AGP, I don't have a system for them) |
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Post by georgekokovinis on Mar 20, 2023 10:02:51 GMT -5
To make it tansparent, the only two possible benchmarks for these cards are 3d99 and 3d2001.
Nothing else.
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Post by ShrimpBrime on Mar 20, 2023 10:17:07 GMT -5
To make it tansparent, the only two possible benchmarks for these cards are 3d99 and 3d2001. Nothing else. Pretty much like 4 benchmarks in total. Since Aquamark needs the stupid wrapper, I doubt it'll run on W98. So that leaves 3dmark 99, 2000, and 2001SE. |
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Post by austin86 on Mar 20, 2023 10:21:32 GMT -5
I do. if I'm subbing a score it better be #1 or at lest #2. Old GPU's are kinda my thing so its something I could pull off with a few cards. CPUs not so much, but top 5 is still what I'm shooting for there too. I plan to grab a hand full of old Cellys and early P3's here soon. I just have to recap my bx133-raid.
That's a relief
Stable yes, but 9x does have its advantages with older hardware. I also know what to strip out of 98 to make the OS even more light and stable. I guess a lot of it comes down to my experience and lack of good 2k/xp drivers for some really old hardware.
As easy as it sounds, it won't be. 2 things - 1, the card better OC as well as everyone else's or better. 2, the CPU better OC as well as everyone else's or better. Tweaks are below those first to obstacles. ATI cards, most of the time, LOD tuned down. Slim OS and background tasks. Other tweaks are below 1% average scoring. AGP, Core2 duo and quads. (Why I don't do AGP, I don't have a system for them) I'm not at all concerned by number 1, I can mod the card till the cows home to push the OC's further. But 2 yes a little, maybe more then a little. I have a 440bx setup and there are some early p4 boards that have universal AGP ports, but I think I can bridge the gap a little with a 440bx and 1.4ghz Piii-s but a Piii is no match for a 2+ghz P4.
The cards I plan to bench would not be usable on a core2 system, I'm planing to bench 3.3v cards some of witch lack nt drivers. Think s3, trident, sis and other odd ball cards.
To make it tansparent, the only two possible benchmarks for these cards are 3d99 and 3d2001. Nothing else. Pretty much like 4 benchmarks in total. Since Aquamark needs the stupid wrapper, I doubt it'll run on W98. So that leaves 3dmark 99, 2000, and 2001SE. I don't plan to bench Aquamark much if at all. But kernel EX sure can do some amazing stuff. I ran firefox 20ish on a 98 system, newer version of .net, a lot of newer games and tools. It might work with the wrapper.
One last question can we use 3d analyze, or is that a big no? I used it in the past to make newer stuff run on old cards and might be able to use it with 3dmark 01 and 03 on some cards.
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Post by ShrimpBrime on Mar 20, 2023 13:50:25 GMT -5
As easy as it sounds, it won't be. 2 things - 1, the card better OC as well as everyone else's or better. 2, the CPU better OC as well as everyone else's or better. Tweaks are below those first to obstacles. ATI cards, most of the time, LOD tuned down. Slim OS and background tasks. Other tweaks are below 1% average scoring. AGP, Core2 duo and quads. (Why I don't do AGP, I don't have a system for them) I'm not at all concerned by number 1, I can mod the card till the cows home to push the OC's further. But 2 yes a little, maybe more then a little. I have a 440bx setup and there are some early p4 boards that have universal AGP ports, but I think I can bridge the gap a little with a 440bx and 1.4ghz Piii-s but a Piii is no match for a 2+ghz P4.
The cards I plan to bench would not be usable on a core2 system, I'm planing to bench 3.3v cards some of witch lack nt drivers. Think s3, trident, sis and other odd ball cards.
Pretty much like 4 benchmarks in total. Since Aquamark needs the stupid wrapper, I doubt it'll run on W98. So that leaves 3dmark 99, 2000, and 2001SE. I don't plan to bench Aquamark much if at all. But kernel EX sure can do some amazing stuff. I ran firefox 20ish on a 98 system, newer version of .net, a lot of newer games and tools. It might work with the wrapper.
One last question can we use 3d analyze, or is that a big no? I used it in the past to make newer stuff run on old cards and might be able to use it with 3dmark 01 and 03 on some cards.
Sure you can use 3D analyze. Should be no issue there. |
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Post by dr4g00n on Mar 21, 2023 12:02:07 GMT -5
"I'm not at all concerned by number 1, I can mod the card till the cows home to push the OC's further. But 2 yes a little, maybe more then a little. I have a 440bx setup and there are some early p4 boards that have universal AGP ports, but I think I can bridge the gap a little with a 440bx and 1.4ghz Piii-s but a Piii is no match for a 2+ghz P4.
The cards I plan to bench would not be usable on a core2 system, I'm planing to bench 3.3v cards some of witch lack nt drivers. Think s3, trident, sis and other odd ball cards."With these really old cards the cpu is a toss up, sometimes it helps and other times it doesn't matter. I've got 1st in 3DM99 with a Savage4 even though I used a PIII 866, simply because my card does a stupid 180MHz core (soft limit) vs the next best of 160MHz, and they had a P4 2.8.
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Post by antinomy on Mar 22, 2023 0:39:51 GMT -5
I know the wire frame hack. I'm calling the police 
austin86 for #1-2 I'd suggest to look for a KT333 board like Epox. Socket A CPUs are much more powerful than s370. 3Danalyze is a big no go. Because it's a software wrapper that moves graphic output from GPU to CPU. So instead of a GPU test we get a CPU test. Not the way it was intended. It's been forbidden all the time. KernelEx won't help with Aquamark. It won't work with old cards on XP either. I've explained above. If you're good at soldering, I can suggest you one of the best configs for 3.3V AGP you can get.
dr4g00n, I'll come for your Savage4 scores one day  but not this year definitely. |
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Post by austin86 on Mar 30, 2023 14:26:30 GMT -5
If you're good at soldering, I can suggest you one of the best configs for 3.3V AGP you can get. I could do the 3.3v mod on a AGP riser card, but from what I know not all boards like older 3.3v cards even if you do cut the AGP socket and solder a 3.3v rail to it. So I rather not get into that.
I also have a 1.4ghz Piii-s so its not to bad if I bench on sk370. Its no Barton but its no 550mhz slot 1 chip ether.
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but not this year definitely.
