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Post by zila1 on Jul 12, 2022 14:36:41 GMT -5
A friend of mine had one hell of a problem with an engine on the dyno last month. He rebuilt it and put it on the dyno for checkup and fine tuning and after the cam was broken in the engine started ticking. Well sure enough, the cam and lifters failed. Good thing he didn't take it up over 2000 RPM or put the engine in the car yet. The car is still in the body shop but almost ready for the engine. Luckily no harm was done to the engine. They took the whole thing apart to inspect all the bearing, journals and oil galleries just to be sure there wasn't anything left behind. They hot tanked it again and it's sitting on the engine stand. Just sitting. He's afraid to buy parts now. And it just sits. It's a 455 4Bbl carb. going into a 1972 Buick Electra 225 2DR. Coupe. The car is just about ready to accept the engine but like I said he's just too afraid to make a parts purchase now. So the car and engine will go into storage until some time in the future. It's a damned shame. He's got about 50 grand into this project. He's hoping to drive the car for his retirement next year.............but the way things are going I just don't know.
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Post by ShrimpBrime on Jul 12, 2022 18:53:27 GMT -5
Yeah the lifters are always noisy on a fresh build. The tick might not go away, some are just noisy.
I can't suspect the cam is bad from a couple bad lifters, but I've been wrong before....
Fresh build though?..
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Post by Mr.Scott on Jul 12, 2022 18:55:08 GMT -5
I'd be more inclined to think 'poor assembly' rather than bad parts.
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Post by ShrimpBrime on Jul 12, 2022 18:56:33 GMT -5
I'd be more inclined to think 'poor assembly' rather than bad parts. Yep. Or some one put a bad cam back in.... something. |
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Post by zila1 on Jul 12, 2022 19:50:08 GMT -5
Anything is possible. At least my friend's engine is fine. Just that damned cam and lifter kit that took a shit. Thank goodness. I too have been having issues with replacement parts. They just don't seem to last. Everything I buy lately seems to be crap. Brake drums on my Buick have been a thing the last couple years. They warp very easily. I used to run brake drums for five years or more before ever having to worry about them. Now, lucky if they last a year and a half. Nothing seems to last anymore. And I don't abuse or put massive miles on them. I've noticed the newer stuff is much thinner. Recycled metals?? Jeez.
Edit: I can't wait for my friend to finally finish that '72 Buick Electra 225. This has been a 10 year project. Parts ain't easy to find for that car. I helped him get quite a few interior pieces as well as exterior body side moldings and emblems.
Edit2: I know someone that can get him a cam and lifter kit for that 455. As soon as he's ready to get back on that horse I will get them for him. I wanna see that car put together.
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Post by MetalRacer on Jul 12, 2022 21:13:24 GMT -5
I'd be more inclined to think 'poor assembly' rather than bad parts. I would to, correct assembly and break-in of a new flat tappet cam is critical.
Learned my lesson 30 years ago with a Crane cam kit.
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Post by zila1 on Jul 12, 2022 23:07:13 GMT -5
I have ordered the new cam and lifter kit for him. I am gonna install this setup for him myself. This is just my game. I can work on a 455 with my eyes closed.
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Post by Macsbeach98 on Jul 13, 2022 7:41:17 GMT -5
Flat tappet cams are ground with a 1 thou taper from one side of the lobe to the other and the lifters are ground with a corresponding taper the centre of the face of the lifter is one thou higher than the edges its to ensure that the lifter turns as the cam rotates.
Be sure when you put the lifters in Eddie they go in easy and you should be able to turn them with your finger if there is a burr or any shit in the lifter bore that stops one from turning the lifter and corresponding cam lobe will be galled after 20 mins of running.
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Post by Bones on Jul 13, 2022 17:25:18 GMT -5
This is the procedure I've always gone by for flat tappet hydraulic lifter valvetrain setups and saying as much since I'm still a bit of a wrench-head:
Note all the following applies ONLY to a hydraulic flat tappet cam valvetrain.
Valve trains that are roller based on the cam lobe/lifter itself in any way do not apply to this.
Flat tappet cams will rotate/spin the lifter in the bore as it turns so the pushrods will do the same thing.
What I've always done before with those is to first, make sure the lifter itself is good (Not collapsed) and is fully pumped up as possible, important to new builds for setup.
Also, if it's a brandnew engine setup being done, be sure the pushrod's top/bottom ends and rocker arms are lubed before you do this.
I'll turn the engine by hand/starter bump and make sure the cam, based on the valve I'm working on ATM is right at it's lowest point of lift for that particular cam lobe/valve meaning the valve I'm working on should be fully closed if all were correct.
I take the pushrod and "Spin" it while using my fingers and slowly tighten the nut until I can no longer spin/turn the pushrod, I then back off "Just enough" so I can spin/turn it again with my fingers, checking to feel for smoothness of rotation.
Bear in mind this does not mean for the pushrod to be loose in any way, when I say "Spin" it that's related to whether you can make it spin/turn at all with your fingers when you try it.
After all pushrods and rockers are adjusted, start the engine and watch your pushrods, if they spin while it's running that's a good thing but then you'll need to watch how much it spins the pushrods. esp after the engine has fully warmed up to temp.
Let the engine run for a few minutes and after it's warmed up, check and see how the pushrods are spinning.
I like the see them spin about a 1/4-1/2 turn each time the cam is at it's lowest point (Between lifts) on that particular valve when viewed in operation.
More than 1/2 turn and it's probrably a bit loose and if it's not getting at least about a 1/4 turn it's probrably a bit tight.
*NOTE* Sometimes you'll get one that goes from about a turn or more to not turning at all between each valve lift - They can be fiddly at times so do as best as you can.
If all looks and sounds good then run the engine at different RPM's than just idle - No need for hard revving at this point, just run it at different engine speeds for a couple minutes and recheck.
You may see a little difference in one or two between all of them after this but that's fine as long as things have settled within you target spec for 1/4 to 1/2 turn per rocker arm/valve lift operation.
If it's all still OK then it's ready for a test drive, checking them one more time after the drive so you'll know all adjustments have settled in and are holding.
This is all for a standard flat tappet hydraulic lifter/cam valvetrain and ONLY applies to those setups.
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I've also reused old pushrods and lifters before too - Not recomended of course but it can be done.
Did that with my old big block when I built it back in the spring of 88 (Old pushrods, new lifters) and ran it for years after that with 0 problems - The engine to this day still runs fine.
There is also a guy that used to test camshafts for a major cam manufacturer that said he always reused lifters, using sand paper to do the lifter prep for the next cam and never had any problems because of it.
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Post by zila1 on Jul 13, 2022 18:01:54 GMT -5
I will be at his house this weekend to look that engine over. I want to see that cam and lifters myself. I want to hold those lifters in my own two hands. I need to see those lobes on that cam. And I need to inspect that block. It's a two week wait on the new cam and lifter kit.
You know Rods, if the old pushrods and lifters are fine I don't see a problem in reusing them either. I disassemble them, clean them out and overnight oil soak before installation. I've never had a problem. But things were of higher quality back in the day. You could do that. If he still has the originals, I will look them over and check them for good fit if he does. I can't wait to play around with the old 455. It's been a long time since I've laid hands on one of those babies.
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Post by Bones on Jul 13, 2022 23:00:43 GMT -5
Be sure to use some fine sandpaper and just go over both ends of the pushrods to eliminate the wear pattern that may have developed if they were new. I usually just wrap the tip or stick the tips into the paper at an angle relative to the actual surface on the tip and twirl it as if the rod is spinning, that's what I did with mine and never had a problem.
I do not do this directly on the tips so I'm not rubbing the spot where the oiling holes themselves are, I do that part of it lightly until all traces of the old wear pattern are gone and that's about it.
Only thing to really worry about with old pushrods is the amount of wear on the tips.
If either tip or both tips are worn period, a new pushrod is required in that case.
When you do this for the lifters you simply lay the sandpaper sheet on a flat surface, then lightly slide the cam lobe side of the lifters around flat on the sand paper in a figure 8 pattern until the wear pattern on the lifters is gone.
As long as the lifter isn't collapsed or headed that way you should be fine with those.
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Post by ShrimpBrime on Jul 13, 2022 23:01:16 GMT -5
You can prime the lifters by disconnecting the fuel line and cranking with the starter. This will help on first start. I like to bathe mine and tap the air bubbles out. Some kids put em in dry and just prime the motor.
Everyone has their techniques Eddie. I'm sure it'll fire up and purr like a kitten.
What assembly lube do you guys like? I use Lubriplate #105.
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Post by Bones on Jul 13, 2022 23:03:32 GMT -5
Normally to prime lifters, new or old out of the motor I just completely dunk them in a can or container of oil and using an old pushrod, I just plunge them until I can feel they are primed.
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Post by ShrimpBrime on Jul 13, 2022 23:12:42 GMT -5
Normally to prime lifters, new or old out of the motor I just completely dunk them in a can or container of oil and using an old pushrod, I just plunge them until I can feel they are primed. Yep. I tap the air out. Pump em. And most of the time, still prime the motor anyways. Want that oil up top before it's turning w/e you have the cold start set up at 950 revs or w/e. Just how I like doing em. It's how gramps taught my old man, that's how my old man taught me. Oil up before pedal down "" Or something like that they say. |
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Post by Bones on Jul 13, 2022 23:18:32 GMT -5
Forgot to mention about checking the flatness of the lifters on the bottom, if they are concave/convex instead of flat, replace them period. Just know the bottom of the lifter in it's entirety isn't "Flat" by design. www.enginebuildermag.com/2014/08/preventing-flat-tappet-cam-failures/Yep - It's a good idea to spin the pump with a drill and priming tool before trying to start it. Easily done on a Ford, on a GM it's harder to do but can be done anyway. You can also have an old junk distributor for the engine with the cam gear removed and the rotor button gone. Simply take a good, stiff piece of hose and clamp it to the distributor's shaft where the rotor button would be on one end and to the drill bit on the other and spin it until you either see oil pressure, see oil coming out from the pushrods or any other indication of oil flowing. Do it for a few seconds after you see the oil to be sure it has reached everywhere it needs to go. Big thing is to make sure you have oil being pumped before you stop. And be sure whatever oil you use for older engines has some Zinc in it. Either use a zinc additive or get some Delo 400 or Rotella T, either oil still has some zinc in it but these days newer oils no longer have it and can cause cam/valvetrain problems because the zinc isn't there like it should be for older engines. |
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Post by zila1 on Jul 14, 2022 13:28:51 GMT -5
Normally to prime lifters, new or old out of the motor I just completely dunk them in a can or container of oil and using an old pushrod, I just plunge them until I can feel they are primed. We old timers seem to do things pretty much the same way Bones. That's exactly how I do it too. I drop the cam and pushrods in oil too just to get them all slicked up. |
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Post by zila1 on Jul 14, 2022 13:33:57 GMT -5
Flat tappet cams are ground with a 1 thou taper from one side of the lobe to the other and the lifters are ground with a corresponding taper the centre of the face of the lifter is one thou higher than the edges its to ensure that the lifter turns as the cam rotates. Be sure when you put the lifters in Eddie they go in easy and you should be able to turn them with your finger if there is a burr or any shit in the lifter bore that stops one from turning the lifter and corresponding cam lobe will be galled after 20 mins of running. Will do Pete. I will be inspecting the outer lifter bodies and lifter bores for any signs of seizing. Once I have hands on, I will know everything. |
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Post by zila1 on Jul 14, 2022 13:44:10 GMT -5
I'm setting up his garage as a staging place to put the engine back together when the parts arrive and I will start it up on the engine stand. I have a remote starter switch for it and a battery that I'm gonna hook up. I will have this bitch running one way or another. I hope the neighbors won't get pissed off when I start that 455 without exhaust on it. I might hook up a couple of straight pipes on it that he has lying around in the garage. They have the flanges and bolts on em and ready to hook up. I'm so excited I could just shit myself.
He told me not to take pictures of anything. He's superstitious.
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Post by zila1 on Jul 16, 2022 22:20:09 GMT -5
Just got back. Spent the day with the engine today. That engine is just fine. The lifters are defective. The lifter springs are shit. Weak as a fuck. He has the original lifters. I disassembled both the 50-year-old original lifters and the new ones. The new ones are just crap. 4 out of 8 lifters won't pump up. Cheap garbage like most replacement parts today. Just crap. Stamped made in Mexico. I swapped over the springs and the lifters pumped up. I told him to NOT throw away the old 50 year old lifters. I'm gonna restore them and just put them aside as spares. Still got new parts on the way. I've got new old stock coming at me. Expensive but worth it. Over three times the price of this garbage he was sold. Real AC Delco coming our way. The cam looks just fine and the cam bearings and lifter bores are good too but I'm pulling all of it and putting in that matching new kit. Hopefully by next weekend I should have the new cam and lifter kit. Pistons/Rings, cylinders, crank.........all good. They did a nice rebuild. It's all real nice and tight. Just stupid cheap lifters caused this problem. Could have screwed this engine up bad if they had pushed it. This is easily a 500HP engine. Tired, going to bed.
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